本字幕由TME AI技术生成
嗯
秘密
死于二零一五年八月七日
如释重负
葬礼上
没有人知道母亲的病情
没有人知道我父母的争吵有多激烈
一张又一张华人面孔
我把事情讲了又讲了一遍
他们的嘴巴像时间一样张开
红袋子上的汉字我看不懂
花茎和花朵说着话
花突然低头看到腿不见了
后来我找到了一张照片
是前年母亲微笑着和朋友们在家中的合影
没有氧气瓶
鼻子里也没有插管
在他生命的起点和终点之间
他一定是把插管取了下来放在了柜子里
我想向他内心惊慌失措
等着朋友们离去
思维和言语像大雁般排成一队又拆开
现在科学家说
人死后大脑仍在工作
大脑的能量会突然爆发出来
也许他听到了头顶大雁最后一次拆开队伍的声音
或许我吻他脸颊的感觉像闪电
汇集人文社科智慧
共鸣你的精神气场
欢迎来到echo 回声场
我们是一档人文社社科对话的播客
我是主持人阿黛戴ala
开头的这首诗节选自记事录
记是记录的记
逝是失去的失
顾名思义
这部诗集记录了许多关于失去的哀思
其中的很多诗呢
都以赋告的口吻书写
很有实验性质
去传递给人很真实质朴
自然流露的情感
我喜欢在夜深人静的时候阅读里面的诗
一次次被带回内心最柔软感感性湿漉漉的角落
这一期我们很荣幸的邀请到了技术的作者victorian chain 张敏爱
张敏爱出版了多部诗集以及儿童文学
是当代美国文坛一位备受赞誉的美籍华裔诗人
本期播客呢
我们深入对话
张敏爱聊聊他作为一个诗人的方方面面和作为美籍华裔女性的独特体验
以及最后作为女儿和母亲的复杂心理感受
本次对话主要以英文为主
Okay so um
Hello
Victoria
Hi
How are you
I'm good
How are you
I'm doing well
Thank you
Okay uh so after your publication of orbit in twenty
Twenty um subsequent all tree collections
Such as uh the trees witness everything and uh we ad my back to the world were also released um and all three collections revolve around this theam of life and death
But
But how have evolved ved as mamay be perspespective h and language and your feelings
You know i feel like
I feel like my thoughts about life and death
And especially death in grief just keep changing
You know it's like a
It's not that it changes
It's not that i still don't feel um
You know sad about my
My parents um and y're illnesses and their deaths
But my think over time your feelings
Because those things my change change
So i think think because that my writing
My change
And because i have new perspectives and his time paschange my thoughts and view sort of begin to change and um
Yeah i think recently i thought it's
It's
You know how do you move on sort of beyond how do you continue living
You know a good life
Once your parents are gone
And how would they have wanted you to live
So i think my feelings have changed a lot as time time ggna um so writing to you is kind of like a way um about or sometimes against forgetting
Yeah
I think it's a way of um
It's a way of sort of making
Sense of the
The world um around me and i think
I think i have to kind of work through life um by writing
Because i'm not often has i not sure what i'm thinking and what i'm feeling
Until i start writing
And so it's kind of a way to pass the world
To make sense of the world around me do you feel like you're understanding of life deepuh throughout the process of writing
Oh
Hundred percent and reading actually my
I think my life is so much richer just from reading are their people's thoughts and um looking at art and you know and writing myself
And so i think when i'm writing
I'm having a sort of conversation with all the
All the people that have been have written before me
All the people that might right after me
So it's um and i'm not really talking to myself
I feel like i'm talking to all the people um that are writing or not even writing
Who might be reading
Um like you've got quite a lot of awards
Especially with a orook it name a few it the ansfield wolf book price
And was a finalist for national hundred books athe ard
Um do you think such an external eaward mechanism is important for the motivation of creation
Um for me not really
But um you know ii feel like in this country
You know chinese people are so very invisible in a lot of ways
And so i think
I think it's hard to get that kind of attention and recognition for anything we do
Whether we're writing palms
Or you know um trying to be uh an olympic athlete
Or you know in our
In our jobs
It's very difficult to get that kind of recognition
And i wasn't um planning on it or trying to get it if that make sense
If so it sense
And i 好的
对的
Just love love what i do
And i feel lucky to be able to um right in
In
Have a passion for the things that i do and whawhatever comes of it or doesn't come of it
No
I was prepared to accept um
And so i feel um that i somehow got um lucky
And have achieved a lot of things
That a lot of people really probably once
But you know i don't
I don't worry so much about it
But i think you know what
What it did do
Is it give me some encouragement to keep writing
And um every time i receive any kind of fellowship or scholarship and money
Yeah
I think
I think that it's such an encouragement
And i think being um you know being chinese
American in this country
It's so important to get encourageged
Because it's so easy to be discouraged and to stop operating that kind of thing
I hear these stories all the time
And so it's
It's wonderful to receive that recognition
And um you know i don't take it for granted
But i don't um allow it to sort of shape the things
I write about or how i write
I just feel
I do
I feel
I feel lucky
I get to right at all you mentioned a really also ping
I'm wondering
Do you always prefer poetry as a way of self expression like growing up what kind of uh ereral works influencyou most like for me iiii ad ad ferritles and the very young age
And
And maybe move on to fantasy
So when i start to write something
The first thing occurred to me was to write something fictional um um basically would inspired you to right
Yeah
I think when i was little
Ii liked to read um um
And i think i started writing poetry first
When i was very very small
But just because our school teachers they made us
Because um we had a very now went to a very good public school school in michigan
And they just had a very strong poetry program
And i was wrong ddtry school in like first grade
Second grade
Thirgrade
Like all the elementary school a throughout a much scols writing poetry
And then when i got two middle school in high school
I was reading a lot more fiction
But i really never had too much desire to write fiction
Actually i'm before i got ten here and working on a fiction
And working on fiction now
But now i write more um proes
You know i write more fiction on fiction
But and my preference is always poetry still um so and it has
I think it has a lot to do with your education growing up as you mentioned definitely yeah
And i
And i just think for me
Poetry feels just like the the most kind of pure for i'm of writing to me
And it uh you know my brain isn't that organized
And so i think poetry works very well for the way that my brain kind of works
And you can leave a lot of space in between poetry
You can not make sense in poetry
And i feel like poetry you're really
You're really writing
When you're writing
You're not even when 're am writing in sa about this it's um you're really
When you're wrthink
Feel feel you're not really
You're hiding things
You know so it feels like pouetry
Feels like it's
It's secretive
That it is hidden um
And i think therefore it can be very hunting in ways
That fiction might not be as much
You know so i think pouetry is very mysterious to me
And that's why like it the most yeah
So talking about like this difference between thick pouetry and fiction
Uh
Uh remember it uh occurr to me
The famous novel is quandara
Uh you
You know him
Yeah
He once said something about the novel is like
Like the most prominent character so hh ue nonol lest is prefering not to talk about oneself
And there i remember there is dismatt for about a novel lest who ruin the house
He's living in and build another house with the braks left uh that is a house of his novel
So he said the novel s the braak don't matter anymore
But the new house does um and uh yeah
Ii just said like sometimes i also write some stuff
And when i look back at what i've written mostly fiction
I feel like it's too personal
Like my much about um myself self um exposed um
And i wonder do you have such concerns when you are writing poetry this or do you think it's quite different
Yeah
I mean
I think it's always a risk when you're writing um
Because the risk is that you might expose too much about your interior and what's inside
And i think that
I don't worry about that i just sort of write whatever i want and um
I know that's the freedom of petry try
Yeah
Oh
And and fiction
And or fiction you can write auto fiction
You know you can kind of incorporate your own feelings in your own care
Your own self accharand and two and i think
Yeah
I think it's very joyful to just right
Whatever you're feeling or thinking
And then you can ed it later
And if you feel like this isn't something i feel like exposing
Then you can cut it out
Or you can change it
And i often times like i
You know i don't always tell the truth
You know when i'm writing poetry or fiction
And that's the beauty of making art
You can make things up
Then you can um change things
You can
You can exaggerate things
You can turone things down
And so ii think um you know i don't really think about it is like all this is me talking or the
The characters me so much
Because i think if i thought like that i would be um probably more uncomfortable kind of thing
But yeah
I've been
Been doing
I've been writing for so long so it doesn't
I don't care
I don't care anymore at this point
It's been a long time
Since i've been writing so yeah
That's interesting
Because uh when i was
I was actually reading your uh poems this morning i was
I've been reading your poem like um h days days like usually during the night and sometimes early in the morning
And i feels very like they are very authentic
I can feel like living person whose experiencing those like great feelings of grieve and loss
Yeah Yeah
And honest
I would say very honest
Yeah like it's very
You were talking about too much um is exposed
But on the other hand like too little is exposed
Um do you feel like there are also um emotions or feeings that you cannot expresed through pouetry
And how do you deal with such like boundaries of language
Yeah
I feel like
I feel like you have to if you're writer
I think theyare different
Different
Genords that might be better for different
对的对的
Situations are different stories
And so ii like to write across different janruas
And so um you know like like working on a an adult novel right now
And you know able to write about authors of things in the novel
That i can't really write about in poetry
Because the form is wrong
And i written about a lot of historical fiction in uh writing for young people
Children
So i write for children sometimes quite a bit actually lately
And so there are things that i can address in those book
That i can't really address
Exactly the way that i feel like i want to in poetry
So i kind of just you know i have stories
And i want to tell her things i want to write about
I have to
I have to really think about which
Which kind of form or which um john run might work best
And sometimes i try it
And then i also try it again in a different john right think that's the fun about being a right der you there many different ways to kind of approach
Subject matter yeah
Um definitely
So you are also writing a a novel recently yeah just ok
Looking for it
It yeah
Ah so your popoetry so let's go back to the poetry collection
Uh orbit it has now been made available to chinese readreaduh i do you
You the the part
My inevititably lost st uh created it in process of translate
Because they're vitably
And i was also checking mvisions as translator myself
And i can feel like sometimes it's really difficult to like make it at one hundred percent
So how do you view view this night
Yeah
I mean it's hard
Because um i think my
My poems sometimes translate really well
Because i have a kind of clarity in my writing style
Um i feel like
You know
I feel like sometimes some people's work might not translate that ball so like um i feel like the way that i write has a sort like i think of like a uh maybe like a diamond
Like it's very clear
And um it doesn't mean
It's easy to understand always
But it's clear
And so i feel like my work can be translated
Um more easily
That maybe some other people's poetry
But there will be a moments where i'm memeum h ddunyou know h emailed mean was like many many emails
Would
Would send me a whole list of bulletpoint
Yeah
And asking so what does this mean or did this mean
Did you mean this or did you mean that
And
And i be like
Oh
That's a good question
I'm not sure
What i meant
But i know i didn't mean
Maybe something he thought i mean
And so i
I'd have to sort of figure out out
So it was a very interesting process
I think translating it is difficult
And but i think
And iii hope that it translated well into chinese
My chinese isn't that good
So i
I'd have to pull out a dictionary to read um his translations
But ii feel like um it might translate you know better into some romance languages are things like that
But i'm
I'm not sure
But i think um you know the book a bit is has been
And is being translated into quite a few languages
And i think that book um you know really touched people
And continues to touch people
But i also think like it maybe it's
It's a good book to translate mayybe in in ms ms of sentence structure
Or something like that um gives people uh encouragement or excitement to translate it
Yes as you said it's usually very crystal clear
Whether ther about feedings or the facts
Yeah
I think i just and it again
It doesn't mean that it's not hard to understand sometimes
But it
It's just really clear
And you know the
The poet forest gander was the one
Who said was so he was confused
Actually
He said your poetry is so clear
But
But it's like it's so it's not clear
Like easy to understand
So he was puzzling through um that my sort of style writing he was puzzled by how clear it was yet
How unclear was at the same time
So what we had an interesting conversation about that
So now i think about my work is being
Having a certain kind of clearity in the way
It's made yeah to be honest
I don't read pooultry very often compared you maybe fiction uh
Because i feel like ah tion
Although though fiction is trying to make things
Things like clear like uh very like real life like
But poetry is on the other hand is it's more like more h making things more mysterious
And so sometimes it's uh can obscure yes
But yeah i can see like when i'm reading you approach try its can different very clear and unclear and clear ar and clear ar
Also you know the poems and obit are prose poem so so there you they're more
There are little bit more like fiction or non fiction
You know the sentience structure is in like i'm not trying to cut out a whole bunch of language
And make it really obscure um
I'm actually trying to figure things out
And so i think the language kind of mimics
The way that my mind was thinking at that time
Hhm uh
And also in this one interview you
You mention that to be a writer
Your existence is to be discouraged
I can not help laughing when i was
When i heard this
Because um
I also write some stup when i was in college
And i can totally relate to um
But you also sad like hh talk this comcomfort writing offer to you
Yeah in so in this modern world and very noisy and not modern world
How h poetry try offer soliace or a means of resistance
Oh
I think visues
It's such a gift to i love reading poetry
And because it
It just forces you to slow down
And um really pay attention
And you know i think that's just the way to poet me operates i like to slow down and pay attention tion
But think think that other people should read more poetry
Because it really makes you sort to stop in your tracks
You know 're sunny like
And then you lose your breath and you
You gss sometimes at how beautiful something is renderred or how um familiar
Somebody something feels that someone else was able to describe
That you've been trying
You've been feeling
But you haven't been able to describe
And so i think poetry is such a beautiful are
And i wish more people read it um
And i think it would help a lot of people um sort of feel more connection in a very disconnected world
And it would help people slow down
And think about you know those your questions of you know instead of thinking
What should i buy today
Or you know you can think about things like why am i hear
You know what do i want to do with the time that i'm here
And all the people that were here before me
What were they thinking
And you know you can think about death and in a really beautiful way and potrares
Where i think a lot of those kinds of thoughtful
Deeper thouilosopical feelings might happen
Otherwise you live your life on the surface of everything
You just kind of skin
The surface and that to me doesn't feel like a real life
Yeah
That's why i'm very grateful
That we are having this conversation
Not only because you are very good writer
But also it can offers me this opportunity to
To read poetry as a as a daily routine
Because
Because uh i want to mmself
Self This
This in mood to have the conversation so um
But if not for this conversation
Maybe for the past month uh
Every night uh after my daughter is asleep
I would be like wow why not do some online shopping or um
But i can ybe be talk to some was send some message and reply something
But uh because of this conversation
I would back
Oh
Iii need to read some poetry
And that actually i think my life
Make my life better like a as to sad notice those um beautiful little ly le uh
And also make acactually flelect my my own life
And think about my parents and my children
Right
Yeah
And i think love a great thing about
You know when you're shopping it's sort of like a
It's kind of like a drug
You know you're like clicking around and looking at things
And but
But when you're reading it's um
It's connection
You know you're
You get to actually kind of seen it in someone else inside
And how their mind works
And how they are hard in their soul works
And i just think that's really lucky and really beautiful
And that's what i love about reading is that
Oh
Well i get to
I get a sense of what uh someone's like and their personality is like
And what they're thinking about
And i feel such a strong connection
Reading
Because i'm
I feel like i'm
I'm with somebody else i'm having a really deep connection
Somesomebody else mind
And i think that's really beautiful
I mean it's so easy to get online and scrorel and buy things
And we all do it
But i think
Yeah
I think it's
It's very joyful to
To read um
It makes you feel
You know
Like i think very small in some ways
But not in a bad way
You think of you know people been around for so long
And it's what you'll read old literature like things that
That have written by people who are not even to you know like think feel like such a appreciation
To be a human being and to be alive
And i feel like i'm am you know just a part of a long line of you know people that have lived before me
So i think that's that makes me appreciate my life more
And it makes me want to live a better life
And i think literature when i read ii definitely feel that way so uh when we first met in the uh at the book eent ent shanghai
I ask you this question about life and creation like these years when i'm busy live in like taking care of my baby
Child or uh sometimes cving that since i don't feel like creating um very much
And you agree that life has different stages
Um would you like to maybe elaborate a bit and share the the different stages in your life so far
And uh also maybe what's your suggestions to young people who actually love writing
But are it terred um reality
Yeah any reality
Ality
Preprety rourough
Sometimes
And i feel like it's okay to not right for a long long period time
I mean
I think i'm
I don't know how how old is your daughter ter cheese up three years old just three really time time which mean in the middle
Um means ans you are in the middle of it
Ah ah think
I think that when my children were younger
I ah really hard time but finding time to write
And so um and i was so tired all the time
And so i basically did i read a lot more
And then um i also
I also like if i felt like writing
I would just wake up really early in the morning
Or i just remember you know like um one of one of my kids didn't sleep very well
So i just sit in her room
Muce she was napping
Or if i finally was able to get her to fall asleep
But i would sit in the chair
But i just do a little bit of writing
Tiny little bit
Here
Here and there
And so i think that's okay too
And i also remember when they were even older
And then i was very busy at my job
And i was a five year period
I remember that i didn't really write anything
But ii kind of felt ok about
Because i was like i know i'm gonna right again
I just don't know when and i don't
Um i don't feel super inspired right now
Because i just allowed myself that freedom to not create
Because i knew that i was collecting life experiences that i was growing
And my mind was growing
And that at some point all of those things that i learned with shop in my writing
And so um you know
I think writing is a
It's a lifelong um endeavor
It's a lifelong relationship
And it's for the long hall as i always say
And so it's okay
Like if we could spend our whole life
Like if we think about writing our entire life
I think that is um you have
You stretch it out that way
There's no rush or for for anything
You just um you do it when and work hard
When you feel like working hard
And when you don't
You just don't
And um it's totally fine
I think it are everyboyydifferent too you know like ke both writings different like some spill right like every day other people don't right right very often
So i think you kind of have to figure out what your own style is at the time period that you're living
But i mean a three year old
Requires a lot of time
And i'm so as at a seven year old
And a nine year old
And a fifteen year old
It's just time and energy
Yeah
I mean that's kind of what we signed up for
And so does a a new puppy um dogs
I have three dogs and uh
Yeah i just rescued another dog
And they are so time consuming
And i always ask myself
Why do i do this to myself
Why i don't want to ask you the same question or i love i loving animals
But i ah
But i work around sketch
Like i'm very flexible
So you know like i will um change my schedule
You know to take care the
The dog g
You know like my
My dog eeils ils means ys i need help on this paper
I just drop whatever i'm doing
And i help on the paper
And then i'll um go do my own stuff later
So i
I'm very good at kind of working be in between things and being very flexible
But sometimes i feel very frustrated
But sometimes i get very angry
But i want to spend more time writing
But i don't have the time um and so that's okay too like i just have gottten used
Doesn't it's okay
Like you know think if i didn't like
If i didn't write sure i lost some some words and ideas
But i'll write later
And i'll have new ideas or words
And so i think of it is maybe you know very interested in the idea fate
You know like maybe i wasn't supposed to right then
And if if
If i write later
Ter y'll have these new ideas that i wouldn't have had earlier
So i just sort of go with the flow kind of thing 是有
Yeah
I feel like you are intertwining uh writing and your life very well together
Like not only write somesometimes between my literally intertitify them
But also i feel like your love for like care al a little dogs
And your care as you just mentioned to your daughter
I think they
They are also kind of like inspiration for
For you maybe in uh wrding poetry
Yeah
I mean
I think
I think caring for other people
Other ananimals are just ort of being
Um more sacrificing makes you better person and more thoughtful
And i hope that um those experiences can write their that that your their way into my poetry
And people can feel that that kind of care and also especially the characters and you know
You can't really know
You can't really know
You can really write characters or without really knowing characters
And i think the way to know people to understand even yourself is to kind of be very sacrificing of yourself in your time and giving to other people time
You
You know i spend a lot of time um giving back to the community of younger writers um around the world
You know people ask me to do things all the time and i
I try and do them
Because i think it's important to you know give back in as you're
You become older
And older you know you have a lot more experience and knowledge and wisdom
And you know
I wish
I wish older people would constantly share things with me
When i meet and older person
I just want to talk to them
And hear everything
And learn everything
And so i feel um lucky
Someone who's not um that young anymore i'm happy to sort of give back
And i think it's a good way to live your life
You know not to to be so yes like um
And to be more generous yeah
Cause uum when you 're talking about uh sacrifice um being able to ssririice ice
Some exextand uuthe the importance of actually we be able to do that i was thinking about actually many young people today not on uh not only in china
But also in the us in many places around the world
Um many choose not to uh have have children
And also i think uh a lot of people today when they hear the uh the word sririfice they will feel very almed med
I think think that's very different from um like what you're talking about and um maybe it has something to do with the like mainstream ideology
But it's actually
嗯
A kind has its limit
Yeah Yeah
I thought
I think dothink about that
Ii would love to hear more about how people young people over there are thinking
Ii feel like in america
You know this society is so self centered an individualistic
And um i just get so tired
Sometimes of um i just of self focused everybody is and i think about my parents and how much they sacrificed for me
Um all the way through my whole life
And i
Um ii think i learned a lot from them
And so i think it's important to and appreciate all the things
They sacrifice and i sometimes i think back
And i feel really bad
How much they sacrifed for my sister and me and i
And i think well i should live a really good life
Because they
They sacrifice so much so that i can do the things that i'm doing today and 好um
But what am i gonna do to sort of pay that ford and and uh give back
And ii hope that
You know that kind of generous spirit shows up in my writing
You know that um i'm not just writing for myself
But i think i feel like when i'm writing
I feel like i'm
I'm also trying to give something back to the reader
Um and
And that doesn't mean just sort of talking about myself
And i
I'm trying to sort of um share a sense of humanity
And so i think it's
It's that sort of spirit of generosity
Um that ii feel is
Is important
And yah i feel like give everybody thought about themselves
And it would be a pretty sad place to live in the world
And so i think it's
It's better to i think um be generous and
And help people and give back
And
And all the way is that you can
嗯
I'm very touched by your words
Just just i was getting bit it emoacactually
Especially
When i heard about us
Like um we think you
You need to live a better life
A good life
Because your parents are sacrifice their life to
To make maybe your sister and you live a better life
Uh yeah
I mean day
You know my mothers from you h she's a 北方人
And so she you know left china and move to taiwan
And she 's very young
And then my father was is you know he taiwan
And so he moved from taiwan to to america
And they met here
They didn't speak any english
My mother didn't have any money
And um know know worked really hard to learn the language
And
And uh ii just think of how many how hard my dad work
You know when he worked at um ford motor company
And my mother was a teacher
And they just
I just remember them working really hard
And they had a restaurant
And you know they saved all their money
And
And you know give it to my sister in me
So that we could do all the things that my couldn't do
And you
My mother used to say that all the time of if we stayed in taiwan
And you know we would have done a lot better in a lot ways
You know
Because we um you know we may worked for the government
Or we you know because they were very educated
And they had to start from nothing to be here
And so they didn't really get to live out their dreams
And for them their dreams or just sort of like um you know they never ask themselves what do i really love to do
They just had to work to make money
So that
That we
We could live
Um know the next next gender peration
Uh it is not lost on me for any every day i think about this
That i get to do so many things that i love to do
Just because they sacrificed
And so i try and live with a lot of um integrity and honor
And um think about how i honor them every day
Because i know that
You know they didn't get to do everything
They wanted to do that also remind me of my own parents
I think it's because it's universal
So and that's why your polimts are very like
They can touch them uh soft parts of people of um a lot of people
Yeah
And um and in an interview
You also said it was only through your mother that you had this connection with chinese culture
And and after your mother passed away um you feel like as if your memories finished and uh connection was cut off
So uh as a descendant imimgrgrdo do you this identity do h anxiety fuck like cock into
Into cultures
Yeah
I miss
I miet i
You know i feel
I feel so um like i missing something every day
And
And so you know ii try i love to watch um chinese dramas
And so like i feel ii just love um i love to listen to the music
You know like i grew up actually um
You know my mother like to
To sing h song gshe chinese opera
So um i just loved
I love listening to the music
And you know the the various um who ching and youichaing
And the i just love listening to the chinese instruments
And so i like watching chinese dramas
And
And just like i just feel like um that's a way to connenect um my culture that i feel i never really experienced um
And now my mother's no longer around um you know i think about like all like a lot of the characters sometimes just remind me of of her or the things
That she would have said um sometimes i watch tatawananis dramas too and my father you know he spoke mandrin
But it had that sort of tawane's accent
And so sometimes ii listen and watched those two
But yeah
I think about these things a lot um of how and what i went ted
You know shanghai
I really fell aa great sense of loss
You know um
Because i
I'm a chinese perperson
Um
Um never never
I never never had chance
Ance live ve chchina live ve in an asian country
And i really be a chinese person
And i really feel
Feel that sadcountry every day day tually
And you also mention ed this um like uh spirit of game as somehow uh vailing in your work
And you said you are widely interested in everything uh and also always push in a boundary
And be creative and be honest
I don't see many people like that actually uh honest growup up in my environment
And i'm wonder
What do you think that shaped way you are or uh are you born like that
Yeah
You know i think uh to me
I think
I think
I just think it's fun to play and to chinethings
Um i think my father was very entrepreneurial
And so he had that kind of brain
Where he was always trying new things
Thinking of new things
He had new ideas
All the time
I feel like i kind of grow in that kind of environment
And
And also feel like
Like who who am
And and so d like to move words around as as fun
And it's sort of like a game
And i enjoy pushing the boundaries
And trying new things
And new forms
Making
Making new things
And um trying to do things
That maybe other people haven't done before um i get very bored by like the same kind of palm or the same thing
I try always trying new things
I think my brain just naturally works like that
I think it's sort more of like an entrepreneurial brain
You know um my very kind of lots of ideas
Kind of thing
And so you mentioned actually the role
Your dead plate in in a creative environment
And you also mentioned
You said your mom was actually very strict
And you kept t uh seeking for her approval to the extent that um actually
After she passed the way you feel more free flowing
Yeah
So such a description of mother sounds very typical east asian
And at least many chinese doators can totally relate to you um however in the social context
In the environment
That you grow p in
And you feel like ah you share a very special relationship with your mom
Yeah
I mean it's um you i think
I think always had a very good relationship with my mother
Even though she and i are very different
You know i'm very open and um easy going and probably pretty uh free spirit
But she was a very anxious person
So she had a lot of anxiety
You know i shall i think think about how she
She probably had a lot of trauma from leaving all these countries and um and being scared and and in grow p in in a time of war
And so i think i don't ii can't really imagine
Because i didn't grow p that way
So i think she um as i got older
I began to understand her better and and just realize that she was just a very anxious person
And i'm not
And so i'm more like my dad
And so i think i think in that way i got along with my mom really well
Because i understood her
And
And we like
Like we complimented each other
You know we were opposite cut of ying and young kind of thing
But my dad and i am more similar
And so we we um we sometimes you know disagreed a little more
Because we we we both had stronger personalities
And my
My mom and i got along very well
But she was
You know theyboth their typical chinese parents
You
You know yeah very demanding high high expectations um you very uh conservative
You know it wasn't allowed to have boyfriends are drive until was very old
Like i was very um sheltered in my parents were like you have to get really good grades
You have to study hard
You've to work hard
And you know all the same stuff that a lot of chinese parents tell their kids
So so i think i grow up just like a lot of chinese kids um all in china but also in america
It's very very typical um um i
I'm also a mother and daughter
And i'm wondering like you said you have a very get along with your mom very well
I also shred a very intimate relationship with my mom um who's also kind anxious and um
And there's this old saying
养儿方知父母恩
In in like a chinese old saying
Which means like after you have your own children do really start to know like how much your parents sacrifice to you like how how to be grateful to them uh
But on the other hand that's absolutely true
I think only other hand and also feel feel like hh my case ase the mother daughter mode the relationship was kind broken
After i have my own daughter like because my mom was ah very uh h sponsisible person
Shshe's also kind strong minded
And she's like shelike to be in charge
And that's the way
When we are together like the mother daughter relationship
I'm the obedient daughter
And she's like the dominant mom um
But after i have my daughter
She whenever we are together like the three of us
She's still like she's in charge
And she want to be responsible for a in charge of everything
And i would be like i'm no longer that
That comfortable as before um i feel feel ii also i'm in charge of my daughter
Like i'm am responsible for this
So there would be this
I think um conflict actually attention um things are getting better now because i also had this talk with her like this is my daughter
So i'm in charge here
And i think uthings uh have been improving and she's changing
But i think it's kind
Painful and actually um
Yeah
I don't know
Whether like do you have similar uh do you think do you things have changed between uh you and your mom
After you become a mom definitely i think um any time you introduce something new
There's potential for conflicicso so um you know like before it was just you and your mother
And now you have a third body literally
Ah and that is inevitably going to change body relationship
And i think that chinese mothers can sometimes just be very dominering
And that's also what i love about chinese women and the mothers is that you know it's like
Yeah
It's different thing like i had some friends in college
And they were korean
And we would talk about the difference between like korean mothers and chinese mothers
And i think that is i think the
The chinese mothers and have a lot contcontrol popower
Can can
Can be very strong ong the culture
And i think that is actually really good thing
But ii think that achave your own child
You know i think at the end of the day
It's your responsibility
And you are to raise the child the way that you would like to raise them
And also the you know your mother had it's like been a whole generation
So like the everything is new
And so there are new ways of parenting
And you um updated ways of thinking about motherhood
That she wouldn't know
And so it's a learning opportunity for her as well
And um you know
Hopefully you can pull out all the good things
That you learned from her
And then learn all the new good things
And
And combined to be kind of the the more modermother
But it of course they would be conflict
Um i think that's natural
And it means
I guess it means that you know she really cares
And once the best um
So
But yeah
I even were gegetting into some some conflicts
And maybe some arguments with my mom and my dad
Gimy dad that i was parents and um
Yeah
They died it when my kids are pretty young
So i'm sure
There would have been more conflict
Deacually you know they were still here
Today i think about that all the time i'm like
Oh Yeah
My mom would not have like this or this or that tter you know
I think she um they would have
They would have had their opinions about um
My to um daughters about everything
And so in some ways
I was like
Oh Yeah
I didn't really get to experience that
But i know ii of have that
That they would have
They would have had some issues with the way that i did things
The way they did things
Oknow that kind of thing
Yeah
Now that you mention it
I feel like chinese mother really is a very powerful
Like a very powerful figure
Yeah
In general
In general doesn't curse what i've seen
You know
Looking at other cultures too
I think it's very admirable
I really i love the strong mother and woman figure in the family
And i leararned lot
And about that i learned a lot for my mom and my grandmother
And you know
I think um it's good to be strong
And have ideas and opinions
And it
It's
It's good otherwise
And are we here
And you know we're just as smart capcaples
Why
Why shouldn't we live up to our potential
Yeah
I think it makes me think about this in actually another perspective like from other culture maybe to be a chinese
To be a mom
Especially chinese mom can change someone's uh personality
I feel like my personalities has been changed actually ever since i become a mom
Oh Yeah
Ii ah i know know
I'm not sure
What i would be
If i weren't a parent
I don't know
I think it for me
It just helped me grow
Grow really fast
And also my parents getting sick
And me having to deal with all that ii grow up really fast
Ah that's this
This carot when you 're not only taking care of your sick parents
But also looking after your own children
Yeah
Yeah
You were talking about like buying diaper to pose your baby and your father right
That's really um yeah
The mere thought of that makes uh my art heavy
So what kind of feeldings did this cross generational uh caare giving bring to you
And how did you a final balance dange
Yeah
I mean
You know
I think it had ld me how to actually perform
You know it doesn't sound like a good thing
But it is a good thing
Otherwise you know helping my parents die for such a long time was uh it's very depressing
And it's very sad
Then i'd have to like drive home
You know
And then
And then my own kids i'd have to help them with some
Help them with their homework
Or you know talk about the future
And so it's very strange to talk about the future and think about the future
When you don't feel like your parents have any more future
And their future is short
And you become very aware of mortality and your own mortality
And
And i think kind of toggling or going back and forth taume um that it's actually okay
It's the cycle of life
You know we all die
And we don't all die the same time
And it's
It's It's
It's interesting to me
You know like thinking about young people
And how they uh you know they have so such a long life ahead of them and the things that they think about are things like
Oh
Where do i go to college
Um
Um should i major in um i need to find a job
And you know all these things that like are so positive and hopeful
Because they they think that there's that the assumption is there's a future
And i think that's really nice
Actually like to go from you know my parents who lived um
You know really long rich not super long
But you know they're not young um rich life
And helpthem them die
Then thinking that's okay
And it's also okay
That these young people are not thinking about death
Because you
You don't want them to think about death
Do you want them to think about what they want a major
And
And what clasthey're going to take or um
How it you know you want them to be like that otherwise uh know they get
They get to live through their own cycle too
And it's not my place to make them feel bad too early
You know so i needed to sort of go
Where they
Where and then go
Where my parents were and just be very flexible
And that taught me a lot everyone just in their own stage
At their own stage and take
Think they should think about take it slowly not yeah
So this um actually the
The next question
You partly answer it
I was going to ask you like
How did you help your children understand a meaning of that and life
Especially after you uh mother and
And that and think i think a lot of times with young people
Maybe the death of a pet a dog or something or their grandparents
Um is their first sort of interaction with death
And i
And i think that is uh
That is sort like a upcoming of age necessity
And so you know ii just sort of let them you know
Understand that this is a part of the life fecycle
And that um you know they
They two will die
And we all die
And so what are you going to do with your one you know beautiful life that you have you know like chinese people i think are i go you know in your next life for
In my past life for
You know like
Like i think
Like that too i like
Maybe my
My next life ll get to be like a real chinese person
Yebut um real chinese person
That gets to be a chinese person for real instead of a chinese person living in a different country um
But um and i sometimes joke on my my
My other life
I must have been you know this or this and
But at the end of the day
This one life
This particular lot
This is you know this is one particular life
And i think that
It's important to um
It's important to slive it the best that you can
And i think
Knowing that
I think
I think knowing that you're going to die
And knowing that people die
I think that allows everyone to live a better life
If we didn't
If we weren't bound you know by
By death
I think we ououldn't
We oulldn't live life this way
I think um because know we're 're going didie
And that people are going to die
It allows us to live a better life
And you said this is also coming to engsaw sort the thing for for children um
And you also this is you write children's books not um actually quite a bit um uh such you
You already like published books like a love
Love or is mommy
Would you like to uh
Maybe give young parent some suggestions on parenting or um h
This is too big question tion maybe more bfically on choosing good books for children
Um Yeah
Because this is my own problem
These days i'm uh do on
When i'm doing on my shopping
I'm trying or uh help my daughter to do some like do you call that enlightenment
Like to help her to start learning stuff
Yeah
I do back to the idol age
So what's your suggestions
Yeah
I feel like um you know when my ts were young
I just went to the library all the time
And i will just grab anything like it didn't even matter
You know it just bring like a stack a books this high back
And you know i think the danger of young people today in any country
Um whether it's over there or over here is you
You know i think they don't read as much as they used to
And so you think it's just important to um encourage
You know young people to read um
And
And i think for parents just constantly show them that you're reading uh and always have a book in your hand
You know
I think there's so much technology now that um
And then you know ai and all this
And i just think that
That you know i'm
I hope that the next generation will at some point be like too much technology
I wanna go back
And you know
And just sit in in a park
And just read a book
And look at the sky
Kind of thing
And i know that
I know that
That
That's going to happen
I trust that's going to happthem um
Because i think that at the end of the day
You know reading uh looking on social media is not gonna
It's not gonna fill your soul
It's just mpties your soul
It's
It's a soul taking process
And so i think that reading and art and all those things they will last forever
And so i think that parents have to also model that behavior and do and read themselves
You know so you think the good education for children is actually to be more like the naturally
Yeah
I go back to nature
And do like a reading and mayybe control the social media time and what kind of books
Do you think are good books for children
Because we have so many choices that des on online
Oh Yeah
I think
I think anyanything really i think
I think it depends on the age bracket
So i think it gets hard
It's easy
When they're young
Because you just read picture books and um
But when they get older and older
I think that's when it gets harder
Because you know you want them to enjoy the books
They're reading and so um
Yeah
I mean ii just go to the bookstore
And i ask the people who work there what are some really good books for you know teenagers are
Yeah
I think
I think the librarian and the
And the people at the bookstores
And then i also look at all the lists
So there are a lot of lists
But and then get
Get Don't
Don't
If they have these in china
But and there re's theories these magazine said
And then i have all the book like book list is one of them
But they
They just i get them in the mail
Actually
Tually I
I'll read ad
And i'll look
And i'll read what books are look intereted
And that's how i learn about books
And then social media you know
I know we were complaining about social media
But social media is actually great place to learn about books
Because people um actually talk about books a lot on social feedback
Right right right
Yeah
People like i
If i read
If i like a book
I'll take a photo
But and put it on my instagram
And i
I'm consttly lelearning about new books
Book too um
So even um um
If
If 're looking for children's books
You know
I also follow you know like a lot of the children's authors online
And
And i kind of know what they're doing too
So i think that's the good parof socisocimedia
That you
You can learn recommendation
That's tely helpful yeah
Okay So uh
And maybe we are moving towards the the end because of time limitation
How do you view those sad memories
And how can one rebuild meaning in the uh mist of sadness
是对
We were talking a lot about yeah ii think sadness totally fine
I remember mber i was in shanghai
And i was doing an event and someone told me that
You know like that
That still a little bit taboo
You know to talk about death
And
And things like that
And
And things like that
And that is anything tabo about talking about sadness or feeling sad or death or that any of those things
Because
Because i think that um in my experience
Talking about it through my mouth
But also writing about it makes me feel better
And in my experience
When uh people have read my work
And they have experienced um a lot of griefor sadness
They feel like reading my book
Makes them feel better
Like they are not alone in the world
And so um i actually think that it's such a beautiful gift
That i wouldn't have expected
You know when i was wrwrmy booooks that
Oh Well
That people would
I would touch people and that way
And so think think it's very beautiful thing to sort of just allow yourself to be sad
If ysasai would tell people just let yourself feel whatever you're feeling
And it that's sick
What's the best gift of um being human
If you didn't
If you didn't do that
You would just be like i was saying earlier skiming
Skiming the surface of your life
And if that's how you want to live that's fine
But i feel like you have one life
And you're missing so much richness and your feelings and emotions
Um if you don't
If you don't allow yourself to kind of feel those feelings and explore what those feelings mean
I think it makes us richer wider more interesting people in the end
Thank you
Um and uh at the end
Would you like to read this the pem that maybe in your book or yeah
Would like to read this the that sitt here on my desk and from the book orit
It also just ad this
It's my mother's teeth
I like reading that one
My mother's cheese died twice once in nineteen
Sixty
Sixty five all pulled out from gum disease
Once again unaugust third twenty fifteen
The fake teeth sit in a box
In the garage
When she died
I touched them
Smelled them thought
I heard a winmper shupped the teeth into my mouth
But having two sets of teeth only made me hunger
When my mother died
I saw myself in the mirror
Her words around my mouth like powder from a donut
Her last words ds were engenglish asked ked for spreit
I wonder whether her last thought within chinese
I wonder what her last thought was i used to think that a dead person's words die with them
Now i know that they scatter looking for meaning to attach to like a scent
My mother used to collect orange blossoms in a small shallow bowl
I passed a tree each spring
I always knew that grief was something i could smell
But i didn't know that
It's not actually unknown
But a ververb that momoves
Thank you
I don't want to say anything more let's true on the point and end the program
Just like that
