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Welcome to the deep dive
Today we're digging into some really fascinating source material from a listener
It traces the um incredibly nonlinear career in lifepath of someone we're calling kevin our mission here is to pull out the powerful lessons
Maybe some surprising ones from his journey particularly how someone starting out in english literature of all things finds their way to being a product manager of microsoft
Should be some real ah moments about finding your own way
Absolutely
It's a story that really chged enges
Yeah
The conventional ideas about planning a career will look at how each step even the ones that seem totally unrelated
Actually built ua crucial foundation for whatever came next
And how that eventually let him to a role
He really enjoys and finds well fulfilling okay
Let's jump right in where is kevin
Today he's apm at microsoft and seattle
What's life like for him now right
So he describes his work as very busy
He even uses the word battlefild ld
But constant ant adlininpretty high intensity
But
But this
This is y he
He really mphasiy zthat that perpersonal life very balanced
Balanced despite the battle fieeld work work
How does that work well
He works pretty standard hours like nineteen six week days evenings are his own movies reading
He weakened sound quite active he's into outdoor sports
Exploring food scenes with his wife lots of travel
Often spontaneous tririps
He mentions like adtting up to vancouver or down to california
He feels he's a quote balanced ed comfortable state pursuing his career goals
But also you know living the life
He wants okay
That's the destination
Let's impact the journey to get there
Because it sounds like quite a ride it really kicks off with a huge decision back in high school
Retaking the goalcow into dozen six six
He iconly listening who might not know the gococow in china
It's the single massive college entrance exam huge stakes exactly
And his first attempt what the scores weren't good enough for the universities for was aiming ing for so he decided to do was called oak food deo basically restudy for a whole extra exand
And here's where it's really interesting
I think the the school he shows for this extra year
He was in a county town and wong done
What was that like he describes it as having military like management extremely strict students had to be on campus monday to friday and sunday too dorms were mandatory for everyone
Wow
What was the daily routine intense clasasses ran from seven am m straight through to five pm dinner
Then evening self study from seven pm to ten pm lights out at eleven pm
He even mentioned the dorms were incredibly packed like fourteen people crammed into room
Desigsigned for twelve
They had bedsideways apparently so feeling like a robot immense mental pressure
But now we look back and calls it interesting
Clearly formative
Yeah
Perforformative
You have to think surviving that kind of pressure cooker probably builds incredible discipline
Yeah
Resilience
Maybe that's part of the foundation for handling the microsoft battlefild ld later could well be pushing through that learning to focus under intense conditions
It was are skills you don't forget
Okay
So after that intense here he was initially aiiming for what economics are finance
That was the plan
Yeah
So how on earth
Did you end up studying english literature enit as science engineering university in wohon no less well simply put
He had no choice
His scores still we't quite high enough for his top pis and econ or finance
He actually only got into english lid
Because another student drop the spot pure chance almost
And why wohon any specific reason there was a bit of a family connection
His mother had lived there during the cultural revolution plus
Maybe a sense that had a good atmosphere for studying
So what was university life like them especially in this major
He dn't choose ah he menused it relatively boring
Actually especially compared to his very active gift stressful high school life
He mentioned his class only had two guys
Him included said it made skipping class impossible
Yeh small class ses do that yeah
And he noticed a big difference in atmosphere in woham
And he felt like everyone studies for grad school very academic focus
Or as he remembered students back and gldong often working part time jobs a different vibe
His department foreign languages didn't have a tone going on activity was so he ended up
Hanging out more with students from humanities and economics to find some social life okay
So kind of finding his way maybe bit ted drift
But then junior year something clicks a turning point
A big one
He got onto an exchange program went to a school in the us
Midwest
And he found the lifestyle
The whole atmosphere there is exactly what he wanted
What he wanted
That's a strong realization
What do you think that meant specifically freedom
Opportunity probably a mix maybe less rigidity more personal freedom
A different approach to learning or life
It clearly resonated deeply and that experience
That feeling it led to a pretty dramatic shift right the senior year last minute decision
Totally he'd been planning on grad school in the uk or hongkgg
Even had some offers from british universities already
But after that us experience he switched gears completely and decided to apply to the us instead very last minute interesting
He does look back on those university years with summer grettive doesn't make feeling
They were wasted on things like two years of shakespperid
He did feel that way uah from a practical career skills perspective
But he does credit it with helping his thinking ability
Do you know what he met by that how that literature background may be health player
It seems he meant critical thinking analysis may be understanding complexity skills
You definitely hone studying literature
And while he didn't see the practical value
Then you can argue that for apm role now understanding numonce communication different perspectives
That's hugely valuable
It taught him how to think right make sense
No
So so he still had that business ambition
What did he end up studying for his masters in new york
Still aiming for business
Definitely he ruled out finance
Felt his math wasn't strong
Enough ruled out a counting thought
It looked too hard
So he landed on marketing
He figured it was more sales oriented less about heavy math
He mentioned relying heavily on an online forum chase dream for info during the application process sounds like a key resource for chinese students applying abroad and applying last minute after the exchange meant his options were a bit limited
I guess yeah that constrained things
He ended up choosing new york partly because a relative theary suggested marketing jobs were plentiful in the city more so than maybe chicago or dallas okay
So a bit of rushed process influenced by circumstands and advice
But how did he feel about the actual graduate program
He consisiers it
His most valuable academic experience hands down
Says he was incredibly diligent always in the front row
Constantly in the library
Felt every minute in the worth it
He feels that period gave him a good framework and importantly a thinking style that really set him up for his future work
It sounds like that's where he really hit his stride academically
And then came the job on the first job has a bit of a story
Doesn't it
It does so inspired by his lover the tv show mad man uh the classic advertising dream
Exactly he went for his traditional marketing internship
But during the interview hr tells him sorry
Only digital marketing roles are open
Oh
But did he have the experiting rothat no
But
But he sort claiimhe did said he had proactively studied relevant courses
Apparently he was anxious about finding any marketing job as a chinese applicant
So he done some homework just in case okay
Quick ininso way he got placed in a data analysis department kind of ironright
His job was to interpret these complex mathematical models
To give marketing insights
Things like user profiling figuring out the best ad filing how often ten to send emails
是的是的
He describes it as pure by chance that someone who considered himself bad at math ended up deep in data work
That's amazing so the mad men dream needs data reality
But he still had that client facing it right
What did he do
He did so in a really bold move
He nakely resigned meaning quit the data job without having another job lined up big leap
He did it specifically to pursue a sales ls role in an advertising company
Yedid that original client facing dream okay get this whatever in the sales role
Yeah definally find his mad man calling not quite he found out pretty quickly
That he just didn't have the same natural flaare for salas
His uh experienced western colleagues
It wasn't his strength that must have been a tough realization for sure
But it led to some crucial introspection he realized
He actually enjoyed suppoposely boring workid left behind digging into data
Finding patterns
The repetitive analysis
Wow
So trying the thing
He thought
He wanted
Showed him what he actually lighked or was good at exactly it wasn't just about finding what he didn't like in sales
It was rediscovering an affinity for the data work huge moment of self awareness
So what did he do with that insight
How did he bridge those two sides
He figured out his unique position
He was more outgoing than many deep data people
But he understood data away better than most client facing folks
So he look for a role
That combined those strength using data as the foundation
But focusing on communication bridging the gap
And that led him to his current role a data related product manager at microsoft
It's inherently cross functional
He explains lots of communication with different teams leading the product process
But grounded in that data understanding seems like the perfect fit
He engineered for himself he really does
And heheres some powererful advice from whowhole winding journey
The first one echoes famfamous
Lologright right ke
He's just do it
He's really passionate about this
He advises
Listeners you know
Don't wait until you feel a hundred percent red
They just try things
Because as he says you won't know
If you like it
Until you try such good advice action creates clarity yeah and the second peace a personal model
Yes
It's was well
You huang
I
You huang
It translates roughly to love what you do or maybe commit to exselling in whatever you're doing make the best of bit
And you really live that dney even doing things
Way outside is comfort zone absolutely get this
He even spent two or three years working as a data engineer actually writing good
Wewaght data engineer from english lip
That's a serious technal leaave had to managed that
That's the level you do part in action a data engineer builds maintains data systems
It's heavy on poating like python on equal very technical for him
It meant buckling down learning immersing himself
He didn't necessarily love coding itself initially perhaps
But he believed every step is for a reason
He sought his building a necessary foundation
Mastering the role he was in
And that deep technical understanding is incredibly valuable
Now as apm
Even if it seemed like a detor
You really turned a potential detinto a core strengthth incredible
So kevin's journey from that strict high school
The english let major
He didn't choose the life changing exchange navigating marketing
Data analysis
Data engineering
Finally the product management of microsoft
It's just an amazing story of resilience in adapting
It really is what stand out is how
He didn't just passively accept the turns he actively embrace them
He learned to thrive even when it wasn't his initial plan by he found his real strength
His sweet spot by doing by trying things
And by committing to mastering whatever was in front of him
His story shows so clearly that passion isn't
Always something you find
Sometimes it's something you build
And all those unrelated experiences
They weave together into this unique robust skill set
It's not about one path
It's about forging your own path
Which really brings it to a final thought for you listening
If kevin stories shows that valuable skills
Even passion can emerge from the most unexpected places
What unrelated skill or experience
Why you have right now something you may be dismisss
That could actually become a surprising acset for a future
You can't ever imagine
Yet
